Episode 6

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Published on:

2nd May 2025

The Art of Experiential Learning with Karen Carnabucci

In this episode of the Continuing Education for Mental Health Professionals Podcast, host Natasha Moharter interviews Karen, a seasoned therapist and board-certified psychodrama trainer. They discuss Karen's extensive journey in the mental health field, her introduction to experiential therapy, and the importance of interactive learning methods such as psychodrama. Karen explains how she incorporates the fundamentals of psychodrama, its versatility across different professional settings, and why experiential training can be more effective than traditional lecture-based methods. They also explore how to adapt experiential learning for online formats, maintain engagement, and build community among mental health professionals. Karen shares insights into her training offerings and encourages practitioners to embrace creativity in their teaching and therapeutic practices.

Transcript
Natasha Moharter:

Welcome to the Continuing Education for Mental

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Health Professionals Podcast.

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Today we are hosting another CEU

Provider Spotlight Conversation.

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This is where we learn more

about CEU providers in our

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community and their journeys.

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My name is Natasha Moharter, and I'm a

licensed counselor and OCD specialist.

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I run the Facebook group CE for Mental

Health Professionals, and if you're a

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mental health professional, we'd love

to have you join us in that space.

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I

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I am so excited to be joined today by

our very special guest, Karen Carnabucci.

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She's a trainer, psychotherapist, author

and consultant in private practice in

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Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and the founder

of the Lancaster School of Psychodrama

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and Experiential Psychotherapies.

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She teaches psychotherapists, coaches,

educators, and other helping and healing

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professionals how to create sessions

and presentations that are enlivened

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with authentic human connection,

spontaneity, creativity, and sensitivity.

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She's the author of Show and Tell

Psychodrama Skills for Therapists,

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Coaches, Teachers and Leaders.

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And she's a co-author most recently

assisting in the writing of Words of the

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Daughter, a memoir by Regina Moreno, the

daughter of JL Moreno, the originator of

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Psychodrama, and Florence Bridge Moreno.

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In addition to her trainings for

helping and healing professionals,

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she offers special interest groups on

topics like writing for healers and the

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tarot journey in action, plus clinical

supervision and consultation along

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with selling sand trade miniatures.

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She has particular interest in expanding

creativity and spontaneity, and the use

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of embodiment as a way of deep learning

and understanding and social change.

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Natasha Moharter: Karen, thank

you so much for being here today.

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It is such an honor and a

privilege to have you here with us.

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Karen Carnabucci: Thank you.

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It's a great honor for me to be here.

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Natasha Moharter: So can you tell

us about your background and what

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got you interested in becoming a

CEU provider and content creator?

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes.

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Well, I have been a therapist since 1989.

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Originally in a drug and alcohol rehab

center, and then later in a hospital

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setting and then in other settings, and

eventually went on in private practice.

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Even when I was working as a therapist,

I was asked to join in team trainings and

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offer training information that I had.

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That was really important because it

allowed me to see that people were

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really interested in understanding

more about experiential therapy and

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how to do it and how do it safely.

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As I continued in my own work I

gradually started offering more

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trainings and then eventually became

board certified to be able to offer

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psychodrama training to the public.

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The public really being helping

and healing professionals,

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educators, and so forth.

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So I am able to offer psychodrama credits

for people who come to my trainings

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because of my board certification.

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And I should say there's

two levels of certification.

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One is as a practitioner, where you

are able to prove that you understand

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everything you need to know to practice.

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And then I have gone to the level of

trainer in addition, where I prove that

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I have all the necessary information

and qualities and skills to be

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able to train others in the method.

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And then I'm also, through the state of

Pennsylvania, able to offer trainings to

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a number of helping professionals as well.

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Natasha Moharter: And for those of

us who might not know as much about

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psychodrama, can you share a little

bit more about what psychodrama is?

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes, thank you.

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I love talking about it.

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Psychodrama is an action

method developed by Dr.

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Moreno, a psychiatrist back

in the early 20th century.

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He was interested in

improvisational theater.

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He was also interested in mental illness.

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He was interested in culture and

society, so he blended his interests

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of this improvisational theater to

support people in exploring their

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lives through theatrical principles.

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His idea was to use it for anyone

who wanted it or needed it.

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It has mostly landed in the clinical

area of the world, psychotherapy,

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although educators use it, attorneys

use it, organizational trainers use it.

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It's actually incredibly versatile.

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We could call it the parent of role play,

although it's much more complicated and

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expansive, in theory and in practice,

than what we consider role play today.

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Natasha Moharter: So it really

does have the ability to be applied

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in several different settings.

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Karen Carnabucci: Absolutely.

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There is a new book about psychodrama

and education and how educators can

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use these methods to teach better.

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In recent years, three attorneys who

were also trained in psychodrama, wrote a

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book about how to use it in the courtroom

when telling the stories of their

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clients to the judge and to the jury.

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Natasha Moharter: And you

mentioned that it is experiential.

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Karen Carnabucci: It is

highly experiential, yes.

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Natasha Moharter: Can you tell us a

little bit about why you believe that

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experiential training is actually more

effective than traditional lectures

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for mental health professionals?

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Karen Carnabucci: There's a little quote

and you might've heard a variation of it,

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but I think the essence is really good.

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The quote is, "Tell me and I

forget, teach me and I remember,

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involve me and I will learn."

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So many trainings depend on

PowerPoint slides, lectures, maybe

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a worksheet, those kinds of things.

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And it's really easy, and I'll

put myself in the category,

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real easy to not pay attention.

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When you're part of a group being talked

to, being shown slides, when it's all

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words, when the words are going by really

quickly, and you're doing your best to

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grab onto whatever you can grab onto.

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I have found personally that I have I

always learn better when I am involved

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experientially in one way or another.

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I think that is true of most people.

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So a couple of things

are really important.

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One is that the presenter or trainer

is coming from an experiential

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stance and has tools to use.

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And the tools can be learned and

practiced and integrated into the

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material, whatever the material may be.

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There is always, and I'm

gonna use my finger here for

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this little visual cue here.

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In the best experiential learning,

whatever the learning is, including

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psychotherapy, because psychotherapy

is learning as well, there is warmup,

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there is an action piece where

there is deep involvement.

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In the world of psychodrama,

it could be a drama.

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In learning, it can be something else.

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And then there is what is called

the integration, or the cool down,

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or what have you, where we look

at integrating what we have been

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learning in here, in here, in our

whole being, in our whole self.

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Too many times what we do, and

I've done it too in the early days

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when I didn't know any better.

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You know, how many times have we been

to a presenter or a lecture where the

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lecture person begins with a joke and

that is supposed to be the icebreaker.

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When I teach, we take away

that word icebreaker, and we

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use the word warmup instead.

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That we are warming up people to the

topic in whatever way that may be.

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And we design questions or prompts

or activities that support the people

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being drawn in, naturally drawn in with

a certain kind of pacing to be ready

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to learn, to be available to learn.

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Natasha Moharter: We're

here to go on a journey.

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes, very nicely said.

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We are going on a journey together,

so we're just not a bunch of people

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sitting in a room, but we come together.

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And that is the other very

important piece is connection.

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That a connected group

feels like a safe group.

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Where then I'll be able to ask questions.

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I'll be able to be involved.

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I'll be able to be present.

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I know that it's safe.

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I won't need to be looking around

wondering who's who and what's what.

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We have particular ways of

connecting group members in the

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world of psychodrama, which is a

sibling method known as Sociometry.

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It's the parent of social networking.

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How do we get connected to each other?

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Something very simple that a

presenter can do is, even in

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an auditorium style setting.

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Could you turn to your right and introduce

yourself to the person to your right.

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Could you turn to the left?

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And there are other ways of

creating activities, sometimes

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very simple activities to support

people in getting connected,

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feeling safe, feeling comfortable.

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Natasha Moharter: You speak to the

safety, that is required and that

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vulnerability that can be there, when

we're learning or when we're opening

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ourselves up to learning something new.

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And so I could see where that connection

and that warmup is really important to

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set the stage for what is happening.

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes, and if I'm teaching

about trauma, I'm going to be doing some

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different prompts than if I were teaching

about play, or if I'm teaching about

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integrating sound, or the body, or somatic

activities, I may ask some different

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prompts to allow the people to be there.

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Oh, and I forgot something

else really important.

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I, as the presenter

have to be warmed up to.

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Natasha Moharter: Can you tell

me a little bit more about that?

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Karen Carnabucci: I'll tell you

the story that I often actually

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tell in group when I'm teaching.

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So in the olden days if I was heading for

a training and I was stopped in traffic.

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I'd be looking at the

clock on my dashboard.

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I'd be going, oh no, I'm late.

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Oh no, there's a red light.

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Oh no, there's a traffic jam.

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Oh no.

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I was being warmed up to worry.

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I was warming myself up to anxiety.

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That's not what I wanna warm myself

up to as a teacher, as a presenter.

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So once I realized that I could

start thinking, whether I was in a

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traffic jam or not, who's in my group?

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Who do I know that's coming back?

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And who might be new

that I don't know yet?

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Or let's remind myself what I'm

going to be teaching about today.

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Oh, I'm gonna be teaching about, sandtray.

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What is one of my very favorite stories

I can tell about sandtray, or let me

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remind myself of the warmup that I'm

gonna use to get people involved.

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So I am getting my mind, body, spirit

ready to walk in that door and be present.

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So I can move right into

the reason I'm there.

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Natasha Moharter: I could imagine that

you approach the training very differently

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in those two different mindsets.

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes, absolutely.

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Because in the second one, I'm ready to

go and I'm excited about being there.

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In the first one, I'm totally focused

on something that has nothing to do

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with the training actually at all.

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And in fact, if I keep focusing on it.

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I will bring my anxiety to the training.

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Natasha Moharter: I think it's so

important to think about how we

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show up as the trainers as well.

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Are there other things that you have

to do or that you find are really

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important when you engage in those

experiential trainings for yourself?

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Karen Carnabucci: Well, continuing

the idea of the warmup, I

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make sure that I'm prepared.

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Some of that is just nuts

and bolts kinds of things.

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Like, what am I bringing?

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Because I am experientially working.

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I may bring props, like scarves or mats

or pillows or cards or something else.

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So I'm making sure that early

on I am collecting all my things

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to be ready on a physical level.

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And then I'm also making sure

that I am planning ahead.

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I guess I'll call it an outline, but I am

planning what I am going to be teaching

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and how I'm going to be teaching it.

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So I also ask myself the question,

what am I teaching today?

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What's the key element

that I wanna impart today?

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And then what is the root or

roots that I use to get there?

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So what am I teaching

becomes really important.

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I warm myself up and then I find

out how to warm other people up too.

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Natasha Moharter: I think that's so

incredible too because as an experiential

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trainer, my guess is that so much

actually develops out of the group

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connection, out of the conversations,

out of the activity that is taking place.

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But you have to do work to set the stage.

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes,

it's, it's interactive.

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I absolutely have points that I want to

teach and theory, information, et cetera,

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that I want to impart, but at the same

time, I wanna meet the group's needs.

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As they are, as they arrive, as they let

me know who they are and what they need.

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And sometimes people want personal

growth in addition to the teaching

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of the clinical information, right?

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So yes, I'm looking to integrate

on a lot of different levels.

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And the very best trainings, when they go

really well, and integrating many levels.

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Natasha Moharter: If professionals wanted

to engage in experiential trainings,

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what would you say that they could do to

move away from slide based lectures, to

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incorporate more interactive learning?

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Karen Carnabucci: Well, here's

where their own training comes in.

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So the professional who is perhaps

wanting to train about early motherhood

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issues or trauma or, ADD, whatever their

specialty is, whatever they're really

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good at, that they've been trained in.

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They may have years of experience

in, I would say getting training in

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interactive work like psychodrama.

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Which talks about the warmup action

sharing, which we call the Hollander

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Curve in the field, and other sociometric

exercises like the spectrogram,

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the logogram, various kinds of role

play, to get actual psychodrama

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training, which they can find both

online and in person in their area.

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People don't have to get certified,

but some good solid training will give

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them lots of ideas on how to convert

what they know from a head place to

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bring it into action and experience.

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Natasha Moharter: So along those same

lines, how do you adapt experiential

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learning for an online format while

keeping it interactive and engaging?

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes.

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Well, I learned how to

do this in March:

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Natasha Moharter: Oh, so real.

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Karen Carnabucci: And I actually

became fairly good at it.

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So a key piece of online training is

that we, again, want to interact with

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our group or our audience, and we of

course have to look how to do that from

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You're over there and I'm over here,

and how do I become more than just

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a talking head or here's my screen.

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How do I interact with you?

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And the people you're with.

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So there's lots of ways of doing it.

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Some of them, by the

way, are really simple.

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Perhaps you are here with me with a group.

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Maybe it's a group of 10 or so.

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And, one of the things I do

is I toss something your way.

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Here's a magic ball.

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Would you catch it?

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Natasha Moharter: I've caught it.

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes.

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And could you just play

with it for a minute?

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Natasha Moharter: Yes.

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Karen Carnabucci: And be with

it and tell me what it might be,

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what it might turn into for you.

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Natasha Moharter: It kind of almost

feels almost like a balloon in some ways.

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Karen Carnabucci: So we're

being a little playful.

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You're introducing yourself.

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Yeah.

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And you might even say your name and

then I might ask you to throw the magic

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ball to someone else in the group.

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Natasha Moharter: Oh, how interesting.

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Yes.

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Okay.

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Karen Carnabucci: Right.

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And then you pick someone and you

toss it their way, or maybe you

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just toss it generally and see who

catches it and they, because it's

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magic, they find out what it is too.

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Natasha Moharter: Yes.

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Karen Carnabucci: So now people are

more involved than just sitting,

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staring at the screen where I, Karen,

the instructor has got to produce.

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Right?

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Natasha Moharter: Yes.

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Karen Carnabucci: But everybody

is now involved, connected, and of

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course, maybe you now have a special

relationship with that person that

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you wanted to hear from, you know?

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Right.

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Or maybe I could just say, and Natasha,

who would you like to hear from next?

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Natasha Moharter: Absolutely.

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Karen Carnabucci: Right.

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And then you develop a

connection with that person.

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Or maybe I wanted to say, Natasha,

I am looking at your screen.

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And I am really interested

in that globe that you have

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there at the top of your shelf.

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It kind of looks like an old fashioned

globe, and maybe it is and maybe it isn't.

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But you could tell me about

your relationship to that globe.

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Right.

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Natasha Moharter: I love that it

really is kind of getting into the

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space with each other, not just

having to be on the screen, but it's

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really involving the environment.

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That's what I'm feeling.

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Even when you toss me the ball when I'm

like, oh yeah, that globe my mom had in

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her office and now it's in my office.

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Karen Carnabucci: Yeah!

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So then we start learning a

little bit about you, right?

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Natasha Moharter: Yes.

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Karen Carnabucci: And you start

being involved and then other

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people start and it doesn't have

to be a long involved thing.

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We have teaching to do, but it just

allows us to know a little bit about

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you, call you in, let you speak

about something you know a lot about.

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Right.

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Maybe take a little risk.

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Oh, this seems like a balloon, right?

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In a larger group, I might say

something like, pick an object

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on your desk or in your immediate

surroundings that's meaningful to you.

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And if it's a large group and if we went

around, it would take way too much time.

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I might put you in a breakout

room with, you know, two other

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people or one other person.

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So you get acquainted.

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Or it could be also why you're here.

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'Cause remember, I'm warming you up to

the subject I'm about to teach, right?

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So maybe I'm teaching a

course on tarot cards, right?

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So maybe I might have you pick a

tarot card and share it in your

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small group about here's the

image, here's what it means to me.

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Or maybe, I ask you to pick an object

from your desk and how it might

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relate to the goal that you have today

in coming to learn at the seminar.

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Well, here's my object.

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You know, I like to store things.

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I'm just kind of making that

up in the moment, right?

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Um, which even more specifically

warms us up to why am I here today?

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What do I wanna learn?

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But also gets people

acquainted at the same time.

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Natasha Moharter: I think it's

so neat because it really brings

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in a personal aspect to it.

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We allow it to unfold in the

ways that are most meaningful

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to the people that are present.

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That can be intimidating as a trainer

at times to kind of see like, okay,

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what unexpected things might be

brought into the training today.

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I wonder sometimes if we're just kind

of used to the slide presentations as

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a way of sharing, but psychodrama and

this experiential aspect is really

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about, bringing you as a trainer into

this, your background, your interests,

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as well as your training and expertise,

and creating that safe space where

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people can really come together and

learn it and implement it and take

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something away from it, whatever that is.

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes.

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And I would say bringing me and my

creativity because it's a chance for me to

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be creative and there are still structures

and standards and theories to use.

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I get to be creative and I think

that supports other people in being

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creative as well, because you know

when we're working with our client

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people, everyone is different.

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We have to be creative, we have to

exercise that muscle to be creative

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because every client, I call them

client people because I don't like the

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word client very much, is different.

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And so we have to really be flexible.

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Right?

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Natasha Moharter: Absolutely.

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What are some challenges that

professionals face when adopting the

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experiential methods and how would

they be able to overcome those?

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Karen Carnabucci: I'll tell you one of

the ones that I encountered as an early,

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early, younger experiential therapist.

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I would watch these elders, and keep

in mind, at the time I was not an

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elder, I was just a bright-eyed,

younger, enthusiastic person, and

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I would see how good they were.

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And I remember asking my trainer,

Zerka Moreno, she was the wife of Dr.

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Moreno, so I loved being able

to study directly with her.

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I remember the first time that

I saw her work in a training,

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my mouth was hanging open.

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She was just so wonderful.

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And I remember asking her first time

I met her, how did you get so good?

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And she said, well.

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If you had been doing this for 50

years, you too would be seamless.

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Natasha Moharter: Absolutely.

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Karen Carnabucci: Now that I am older and

do have a number of years of experience, I

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ask younger, trainers, younger therapists

don't try to do everything all at once.

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Simplicity can be really key, I don't

have to come up with this amazing thing,

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sometimes it's the very simple question

or the very simple role play, or a really

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simple prompt that opens up so much.

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So I would say to newer people in the

experiential world, learn and start

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practicing by keeping it simple.

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Natasha Moharter: That can take

a lot of pressure off, right?

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I think that sometimes when we think

about, like you said, we look at people

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doing presentations and trainings, and

we're like, wow, I want to be there.

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How do they do that?

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And simplicity can be

a challenge at times.

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It can take some work and some

creativity to keep it simple.

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In my own experience in trainings

when I was very new, I put so much

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information in and I got good feedback,

but the feedback also said, this was

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so great, but I needed more time.

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And I felt like it was

drinking from a fire hose.

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Karen Carnabucci: I think

we wanna naturally give our

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people their money's worth.

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I have been there too, and I understand

completely, and I don't wanna just fill

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someone's head with facts, even if they

just learn one important thing that

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they're carrying out into their world that

they really feel they're capable of doing.

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That's good enough.

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Natasha Moharter: Even in our

conversation today, I am already

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thinking about some things.

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I'm excited to learn more.

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Karen Carnabucci: Good.

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Natasha Moharter: I wanna ask a little

bit more about where professionals

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can learn to conduct experiential

trainings on their own, and can you

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share a little bit about what you offer.

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If somebody wanted to get trained from

you, how would they go about doing that?

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Karen Carnabucci: Yes, well, I'm in

Lancaster, Pennsylvania, which is on the

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east side of the state of Pennsylvania.

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And I do have a school where

I offer monthly trainings

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to anyone who wants to come.

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Typically, these are helping

and healing professionals.

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And I do offer CE credits.

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I'm a little bit eclectic.

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I offer everything from basic

psychodrama 1 0 1 classes.

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The very basic principles,

very basic techniques.

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I have found out through the years

that a lot of people do role play that

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have never been trained in it, and as

a result, it typically falls flat, so

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people say, I will never do this again.

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But in reality, there's actual

training on how to do a role play,

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what not to do in certain cases,

what to do in certain cases.

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So I do some very basic

psychodrama experiential topics.

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Next Friday I'm going to be doing

how to integrate experiential

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methods into talk therapy for a

small group, in a group practice.

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And then on Saturday I'll be teaching

the body double and other very simple

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ways to support therapists in working

with the body as they work with talk.

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And then I have trainings coming

up on all kinds of topics.

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So this month I am going to do a two

day seminar on the tarot because lots

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of therapists are getting interested

in how they can use picture cards and

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archetypes in the therapy setting.

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Some are doing readings,

but I do it differently.

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I really use it much more in a

process oriented way, and also

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integrate psychodrama, family

constellations and other methods,

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which I have found to be super helpful.

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I'll be working on psychodrama

and sand tray where people working

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with adults were integrating those.

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I also train in family constellations,

which is a newer healing method coming

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out of Germany in the last 30 years where

we work with ancestral trauma and how to

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address it and heal it and move past it.

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A lot of different choices depending

on what people are interested in.

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Natasha Moharter: I had shared with

you before that I subscribed to your

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email list and that's how I started

learning a little bit more about you.

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I think about this kind of

from the marketing perspective.

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That consistency and staying

connected with people that you're

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training and people that could be

interested, even outside of the

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trainings is really important.

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Karen Carnabucci: Oh, well thank you.

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I do my best to make it

interesting and full of resources.

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So whether or not people come to my

trainings right now they're at least

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getting a taste of what's available.

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They're finding out what's going on.

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I always try to have some free resources

available of some kind, whether it's

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a link or a video to watch or an

article to read or something I've done

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that people might be able to borrow.

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So thank you for that.

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Natasha Moharter: I wanna come back

to the trainings that you do in

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person at the Lancaster School of

Psychodrama and Psychotherapies.

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You also do mini retreats

as well as online classes.

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What do you find that people

usually take away from them?

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Karen Carnabucci: The other

thing that I'm really interested

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in is building community.

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Because the truth is that

most of us practice alone.

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We're typically in a room with one or

two other people at the most, maybe

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three or four maybe we're running

a group, but we typically practice

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in a somewhat of an isolated way.

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I'm really interested in how to bring

helping and healing professionals

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together to feel connected and supported.

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And revitalized.

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My training settings are always a

place that is beautiful, comfortable,

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pillows, nature, those kinds of things.

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So I really want to create an environment

that feels supportive to them when

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they are out of the professional

setting and in with their peers

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and to support them in connecting.

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And then they're not just learning

information, but they are connecting as a

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group of people that have a lot in common.

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Natasha Moharter: Absolutely.

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Karen Carnabucci: And that

typically feels really good.

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Audio Only - All Participants:

So Karen, if people want to reach

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you where can they find you?

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Karen Carnabucci: I have a website and

the website is called Real true karen.com.

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R-E-A-L-T-R-U-E karen.com.

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I also am on most social media, including

Instagram and Facebook and then I just

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started actually a regular account

on Substack writing articles about

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creativity and healing and so forth.

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I usually suggest people go to

psychodrama certification.org.

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They can come to me as well

and I'm happy to do training.

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If you don't live in Lancaster,

you can find out who might

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be teaching in your area.

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There's also online classes that are

available by many trainers, including

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myself, and also online classes from the

American Society of Group Psychotherapy

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and Psychodrama, which has online

classes all year, as well as an annual

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conference which is a wonderful way

to get a taste of a lot of different

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styles, see a lot of different ways

that psychodrama is being employed.

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Otherwise, I personally

love hearing from people.

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I love hearing what people

want to be trained in.

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What their topics of interests

are, what people need because

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I'm really about supporting,

helping and healing professionals.

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I teach because I want to support the

healing that is going on, and especially

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right now with so much of our country

and the world and chaos, we need group

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skills and we need ways of supporting

people to get connected to each

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other in good ways, in positive ways.

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That's really my mission and to pass

on what I've learned over many years,

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because of course I am getting older.

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Natasha Moharter: Is there any

other wisdom, any other advice

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that you would like to share with

our audience before we wrap up?

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Karen Carnabucci: I would say be creative.

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Exercise that creative muscle.

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It gets better and better.

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Keep being interested in learning.

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It's a big world out there.

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About the Podcast

Continuing Education for Mental Health Professionals
CE for Mental Health Professionals
This podcast is inspired by the mental health professionals in the Facebook group Continuing Education. You will hear stories of becoming a CEU provider, adding additional income streams as a therapist, and more.

About your host

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Natasha Moharter

Natasha is a licensed professional counselor and OCD Specialist. She is approved to provide CEUs by the Nevada BoE for CPCs & MFTs. Natasha also has a telehealth private practice based out of Las Vegas, NV, and she uses ERP + ACT to treat adults 18+ with OCD in California, Nevada, Washington, New Mexico, and Vermont.

In addition to her work with clients, Natasha also runs the Learn OCD Lab, a private online community where mental health professionals can build skills and gain support while learning to treat OCD through consultation and training.